Will ❤️ On The Media

In this episode of Pod, Actually, Will (an independent audio producer and documentary maker ) talks about the podcast that has shaped his thinking for two decades: On the Media.

Will calls it his “portable journalism school.” A longtime listener, he describes a deep admiration for host Brooke Gladstone, whose perceptive interviews and narrative framing continue to challenge and inspire him.

Will also talks about The Read, a very different kind of show that he finds funny, bracing, and culturally illuminating — and about his hesitation to dive into highly immersive narrative series that take over your life.

This episode is about loyalty, literacy, narrative framing, and what it means to feel part of a show’s ecosystem.

Will’s Top Five Podcasts

1. On the Media
2. The Read
3. Heavyweight
4. Love Me
5. Goodbye to All This

🔗 Links

• Learn more about Will’s audio work here: https://aquifermedia.com/
• If you’re tying the knot, don’t miss Will's beautifully crafted wedding podcasts: https://listenwith.us/
• Read the companion piece on Substack: https://podactually.substack.com
• Support Pod, Actually on Patreon: https://patreon.com/PodActually
• Follow Pod, Actually on Instagram: www.instagram.com/podactuallypodcast

📩 Tell us about the podcast you love: podactuallypodcast@gmail.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Hello, I'm Catherine and welcome to Pod Actually, a podcast about people's favorite podcasts. On today's program, I'm speaking with Will, an independent audio producer and documentary maker from New York City. Let's jump in. Will, what is your favorite podcast?

SPEAKER_01 0:23

I say on the media.

SPEAKER_00 0:25

From WNYC in New York, this is on the media. I'm Brooke Gladstone.

SPEAKER_01 0:29

It's also a radio show, so I guess that counts. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:32

Oh, absolutely. A lot of them are doing double duty these days. Can you tell me about On the Media? What's it about?

SPEAKER_01 0:40

Well, I think when it started, it was mainly a show about the media, as it says in the title, but it's kind of expanded in some ways to talk about narratives and like societal narratives and how they're shaped by media. So it's become, I don't know, it's just a great show. I I I never went to journalism school, so I feel like it's my portable journalism school. And I just learned so much from it. And and how it's very always very timely and topical. And I just think it's something it's I I learn so much every time I listen to it.

SPEAKER_00 1:11

And how long have you been listening to it?

SPEAKER_01 1:14

I don't even know. Twenty years? I don't know. It's been on, it's been on a long time. I listened to a very long time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:22

Do you remember how you discovered it?

SPEAKER_01 1:25

I don't know. I was living in Los Angeles and listening to the radio a lot more because I was spending time in my car, stuck in traffic. And I think probably that's when I started listening to it. Because I really got into radio when I was there. And yeah, it's a it's a show out of W NYC here in New York, but it's national. And so I was listening to it there, I assume.

SPEAKER_00 1:48

But it's interesting because it spanned your career, and yet you're still fascinated by it, and you're still learning from the show, even though you're an extremely experienced audio producer now. What is it about the show do you think that continues to fascinate you?

SPEAKER_01 2:06

Well, I'm I don't know if I have, you know, I I learned about this term parasocial, you know, like where you feel like you have a relationship with the people on there. And so I kind of have that, I guess, with Brooke Gladstone, who I think is like a personal hero of mine. She's one of the hosts. When I started listening, there were two hosts. Well, I think I guess there are again, but back then there was a a different co-host. But yeah, she's just someone that she's just her insights are so great, and she's just so with it on, you know, that I I it's someone that I always learn so much from. I was just listening yesterday on the radio, but my partner was actually listening via his phone, and I was listening in, and she was interviewing someone, and she were her questions were just so perceptive, and she was just so in the moment and on top of it, and I was just kind of like, wow, she's just so good at at what she does. Daniel Sir, he's the one he's suing a bunch of TV networks about whether or not they're being fair in their coverage.

SPEAKER_00 3:01

So the equal coverage issue. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:04

So it's uh, I mean, it's not really focused on the making of audio, it's more about the news industry and the ethics and stuff like that and how it shapes narratives.

SPEAKER_00 3:15

Is she a little like an imaginary colleague?

SPEAKER_01 3:18

Yeah, I think I'm more of a fanboy. Like I'm I saw her at a conference once and I was too afraid to go up and introduce myself because I thought she was and I don't I don't think she's that kind of intimidating person, but I just yeah, I just think so much of the show and what it does. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:32

I was going to ask if you'd met her.

SPEAKER_01 3:35

No, no.

SPEAKER_00 3:37

Were you tempted to go up or you just thought, no?

SPEAKER_01 3:40

Yeah, well, I mean, it was at this, it was at the Third Coast Audio Festival, which doesn't really exist anymore. And so there, you know, I think she was having lunch with someone and I just didn't feel like interrupting. I usually do that. I uh if I see someone I know or a celebrity, I will go up and introduce, but I didn't that time, I don't know. Or maybe I just thought I would do it at another time. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:59

Now that we've talked about it, do you think you're more inclined to do it? I guess, but I think I Yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 4:07

I I guess I I guess at the time I didn't introduce myself because I didn't think I had made anything that she that she would find noteworthy, you know. But and now I still question if I have. So I don't know. But I know people who've worked with her and really enjoy working with her. So I don't I don't think I don't think she's like a Miranda Priestley or anything like that. So yeah, I'd love to meet her at some point.

SPEAKER_00 4:27

So you have a sense that she's as professional off-mic as on mic.

SPEAKER_01 4:32

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I have to say they're one of the few radio shows that I actually donate to. You know, here in the US, public media is always looking for donations for their work. And now that the, you know, Corporation for Public Broadcasting has been shut down by the Trump administration, they have less money. But I mean, WMYC is one of the best well-funded stations, but it's one of the shows that when they ask for money, I I donate every year.

SPEAKER_00 4:59

So is that just because of on the media, or is it the station itself, or a little combination of the two? Like, does that parasocial relationship extend? Do you feel like WMYC is family in a sense?

SPEAKER_01 5:13

Yeah, no. I mean, I've heard you know, it's a very it can be a very tumultuous place. Things are, you know, like they I know a lot of people have been laid off in the past there. I don't know that it's I mean, there's different divisions. Like on the media, there's this thing called, and this is really getting in the weeds, called WNYC Studios, which is sort of on the side. It's not its own little thing. So they're kind of on their own. They're not in the full like radio station mix. But yeah, it is. I've known a lot of people that have worked there, and I've known people who've worked it on the media, and yeah, I guess there is a f certain familiarity to it, but I've listened for so long as well.

SPEAKER_00 5:48

So So it's your station.

SPEAKER_01 5:50

Yeah, yeah, in a way.

SPEAKER_00 5:53

Do you listen to on the media the minute it drops or do you save it for a particular time during the week?

SPEAKER_01 6:00

Yeah, it well, it drops usually on Friday night, because I think it comes on late Friday night on air. And so I will listen to it often at the gym when I'm there. And the funny thing is it comes again on again Sunday morning, and I'll listen sometimes listen to it again. Not out of not like just because it's on, you know, like we ha we have the radio on all the time, and so it's something that I'll listen to again. So sometimes I've I I've heard stuff more than once on the weekend.

SPEAKER_00 6:26

How long is the episode usually?

SPEAKER_01 6:29

An hour. Well, an hour with all the like news briefs and stuff like that. Yeah. They also have a midweek podcast drop, like a I don't always listen to that. Sometimes they do, but they're like shorter, like half hour that'll come out. And some of those sometimes turn into a segment on the episode on the the weekly episode.

SPEAKER_00 6:48

Okay. So they might drop a discrete segment during the week and then they might work that into the the total show.

SPEAKER_01 6:54

Yeah, something.

SPEAKER_00 6:55

That then drops. And um when you re-listen to the program, do you tend to listen from the beginning or do you cherry pick, do you jump in and listen to particular segments that have interested you?

SPEAKER_01 7:05

I'm doing other stuff, so just hearing bits and pieces. Like for some reason I didn't listen this Friday night, so I heard yesterday my partner listening to it, and so that's where I heard a bit. So I'll have to go back and listen again. But I've even I've even made, I forget what it was. I've made a quote meme where I took a quote from on the media, made one of those little social media things where you write it and put it as a post on Instagram that I thought it was so great. I should look it up, what that was. But I just uh yeah, I guess I am a fan. I mean, you know, they do a lot of stuff where one of the fundraiser things they do is is that Brooke Gladstone, the host, will knit a uh cap willing cap for someone. And I've never gone as far as to get that, but I've been tempted.

SPEAKER_00 7:47

What do you need to do to get the cap?

SPEAKER_01 7:49

I forget you give so much money in a year and or at a time a certain key time and they'll donate. I won't be able to find it now.

SPEAKER_00 7:57

Maybe you should knit her cap.

SPEAKER_01 7:59

Yeah. Yeah, that would be funny.

SPEAKER_00 8:01

That'd be a fanboy act. Yes. How many podcasts do you tend to listen to a week?

SPEAKER_01 8:09

I don't listen as much as I should. I used to there's I go through phases where I listen to a lot and sometimes other like my the other favorite podcast I was going to mention is The Read, which is sort of a also it's funny, they're both kind of news shows, and they're not really the kind of shows that I'm interested in making as an audio producer because they're very, you know, what do you call it? Like one-on-one interviews kind of thing. You know, the read is just this, it's uh, and it's not the read isn't really made for me. It's not like it's it's uh a black queer man and a black queer woman, and they talk about pop new current news and pop culture. Well, they have four segments. They have one This Week in Black Excellence, then they have Top Pop Culture Things, they change the name of that all the time, and then they have listener letters where they take people's write in for advice, relationship advice, and their advice is usually break up with him. And then the fourth one is the read where they just go off on somebody and they just rant about it. And that show can go on for two hours, and sometimes I will listen to not at one sitting, but I'll listen to it. And they often comment on the fact that I can't believe we've gone this long, but it's very funny and engaging, and it's and the way they talk about stuff is really interesting. Like there's a certain, it's a different. I sometimes think I'm really interested in the we hear the way they talk about stuff, you know. But I remember I met someone who was African-American, and I admitted I listened to that, and they were like, What? Why are you listening to that show? And I was like, it's really good, it's really funny. And they and I totally have a parasocial relationship with them. I went to one of their live events, and Chrysal, the host, was calling out the white people in the audience, and I raised my hand and she's like, What's your name, Todd? Or something like she was making fun of people. But yeah, so that's the one I listened to. But I, you know, I listen to ones that my colleagues are talking about that I hear, you know, that are really interesting and new. And like I just started listening listening to Creation Myth with Helena DeGroot. She won a pitch competition at Resonate Festival, which is for audio producers, and now this Canadian Broadcasting Corporation just produced it. And it's about basically about her struggle with the fact that she doesn't want to have kids, but her partner did. And um, it's really well made.

SPEAKER_00 10:15

I might get you to send me your top five podcasts and I'll put them in the show notes.

SPEAKER_01 10:21

Oh, okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:22

I'm sure people would love to hear your recommendations. So you've identified the read and on the media as your two favorite podcasts. They sound like quite different shows. What is it that you get from each of them? What is it that you need that these programs satisfy?

SPEAKER_01 10:41

I think they're very newsy, and that I think that they're sort of I sometimes think about this with podcasts and the fact that they're parasocial. And I there's something about you're having a you're listening in to some very smart friends dissect something, you know? So it's sort of like it's it reminds me of a time when you would get together with people and have a very interesting dinner conversation, you know, and I feel like these days we do that less or something. I don't know if podcasts contribute to that, but it's like I feel like it's helping me understand what's happening in the news right now in such a crazy time to hear people deafly discuss it in a way and and help me think about it. Because I think I go, I may go and quote them sometime, you know, and I'm talking to somebody else about it. But it it's like having super intelligent friend well, not super intelligent, but just very perceptive friends that are helping you understand the news. And it makes you it makes you feel like you're better informed in a way, or that you're not that you're that whatever you're perceiving is it it reinforces or not reinforces, but it kind of makes you f feel better about the questions that you have because of things that you see in the news, but also it gives you a different way to look at it and a different way to talk about it. So I think that's what's sort of helpful about it. It feels very uh nutritious.

SPEAKER_00 12:00

Mm-mm.

SPEAKER_01 12:02

You know? Yeah. So it's like it it serves a it serves a purpose for listening, you know. It's it doesn't feel frivolous. I you know, and it's funny. I mean, there there are other podcasts that are more series that are very involved, and I I there's a sort of reluctance on my part to get into them because it you get so absorbed by them. I'm trying to think of the last one I did. Uh oh god, what was that called? Uh goodbye to all that, I think. Wait, what? Goodbye to all this by Sophie Townsend, who's Australian. I listened to that a couple years ago, and it was just like something about it just was completely absorbing, and I couldn't stop listening to it. And there's sort of a little reluctance on my part to get involved in stuff because you can't get on with your life or something. You have to listen to it, you know, and I just I don't know what it was about that show, but it was just one that I got really sucked into. And I know that there's other ones out there like that, but I just kind of am like, I don't really commute to work anymore. Like I think back when I used to kind of like bike to work and I would listen in only one ear, or on the subway, I would listen, but I don't I don't commute as much. So like the time I'm really listening to podcasts is at the gym or if I'm walking somewhere. I don't really sit at home and listen to podcasts, which is another thing.

SPEAKER_00 13:15

So when you listen to on the media again, it's partly because you understand the scope of uh what it is that you're getting and you're controlling the extent to which you're being absorbed by the program.

SPEAKER_01 13:30

Hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:33

So is on the media a program that you would recommend to people?

SPEAKER_01 13:38

Yeah, I would r recommend it to most people who pay attention to the news, you know. Like I feel like people who there are some people out in the world who don't really aren't aware of stuff, you know. Like I was talking to someone the other day that didn't know a snowstorm was coming, and I was like, how can you not know this, you know? But I think people who are obsessed with the news, it's a really good way of dissecting it and understanding it. I know people abroad in other countries might find it interesting. I don't know, it might help you understand Americans better, but I think I I find it very useful myself. So maybe maybe it might be useful to people outside the US. It's not completely US focused. They do do international stories, but I think it's a very American-centric kind of show in some ways.

SPEAKER_00 14:20

How about the read? Would you recommend that to people?

SPEAKER_01 14:24

Yeah, it's a little bit of an acquired taste because I think when you first listen to it, it's like they seem very angry's not the right word, but it's just very opinionated and it's very strong. But it's very funny. One thing about the read is when they do the pop culture stuff, often it's about rappers and other people that I don't really know much about, but it's still fun to listen to them talk about it because they get very opinionated and they I mean it's just the funny thing. In the read last week, they talk, I should go back in time it. I think they talk for at least 10 minutes about why they're so upset as dog owners that dog owners in New York are not picking up after the dogs when it's snow and out. And now, I mean, everywhere there's dog poop. And they went on for 10 good minutes about it. And I listened to it. I don't know why. I mean, I got the point early, but it was just funny like hearing them the way they talk about it. And the read, you know, read is sort of like you're you're you're telling somebody off, you're telling them what they what you think. And so that with the name of the show. So it's kind of uh it's fun to hear. It makes me think about like as a New Yorker how I could respond in the moment. It gives me language to say to somebody something because they're very outspoken, you know, and I don't know that's necessarily what I am. But yeah, it's just I think it's worth listening to just to hear them the way they talk about stuff, you know. But give it a g give it a while to grow on you.

SPEAKER_00 15:41

And that's also a weekly show?

SPEAKER_01 15:44

Yeah, but it's two hours, it could be up to two hours long or longer. I don't think they really edit it much at all.

SPEAKER_00 15:51

How quickly would you notice if the read or on the media just disappeared one day?

SPEAKER_01 15:57

Well, I mean, I should be honest, the read I don't always listen to. There's been period periods of time I recently kind of came back to it after a time away. I don't know why. And I often think about what was it about the last time I just stopped listening? Maybe it was just the time investment and I wasn't a I don't know. There were other things to listen to, but I think on the media is part of my Friday night routine. Like I'm going, if it doesn't show up in my feed, I'm worried about it, you know. Oh, and it was funny because a couple of weeks ago they made they Brooke made some sort of mistake. Like she said something about August, but she meant October. And so I wrote to a producer on the show and I was like, she made a mistake there, and like, oh, we caught it, we're gonna go back in and fix it. So I'm like, I feel like I'm part of quality control now. Like I'm listening on Friday nights to help them find things. Like she never makes mistakes, so that would really stuck out to me because it was like it was a factual thing, and I was like, no, that's not right, you know. But I I feel very invested on Friday nights to listen to it. I don't always have to listen to it a second time, it's just more that it's on. And I often share the segments, you know. I I I'll go to the website and if I hear really something really good, I'll go and share it on Facebook, particularly because they're not progressive per se, like they're not politically left, but they have very perceptive factual ways of looking at stuff, which I think undercut a lot of the way MAGA conservatives think, you know. And I have a lot of those people in my circle that I went to high school with on Facebook. So I go sometimes, you know, like dissecting them. Well, I mean, they they say it's not a good thing to mythbust, because that's one disagreement I have with the show is I've worked with organizations where they've done studies that you shouldn't mythbust because it just reinforces the myth. So those I don't like really share because I think it's you know, like the flu shot doesn't cause the flu. And now whenever you say that, everybody thinks, oh, I'm not gonna get the flu shot because I'm gonna get the flu. But I'll share some segments on my Facebook feed just because I feel like it broadens the conversation and helps people think about things differently. I don't know how many people actually listen to it, but I just feel like it's useful. They also have this thing, like I think they what they call it, uh breaking news thing, like to keep in mind. Like they have this little meme. It's like the things to keep in mind when breaking news happens, like when there's a shooter, keep in mind that nobody knows the facts at the beginning, nobody know, you know, it's gonna take a while to figure out what happened. And I forget what all the different things are, but it was just basically trying to get people to calm down when these situations happen and think about the misinformation that comes out really early on. So breaking news consumer, breaking news consumer, that's what they call them. Guide or something like that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:38

As a radio producer, do you feel that part of your professional role is to broaden conversations?

SPEAKER_01 18:45

In a way, I I think that I don't know, I don't I get I'm very tired of this discussion about how we're such a polarized country and we've never been this polarized before, and the answer is somewhere in the middle. I don't like that. You know, I'm kinda I'm someone more on the left, and I don't think, you know, personally I just feel like we're more and I don't think it's about just facts speak for themselves, because I think if facts worked, they would have by now. You know, like people would have if you looked at facts, people would I you know what I'm saying? It's just like I don't I don't think facts are the magic magic solution. It's about narrative and it's about larger issues and values kind of thing. But I don't I don't think it's about going to the middle road. I think it's about trying to shift the way people think about stuff. I mean, there's been studies where like if you if you show someone a fact that doesn't mesh with their frame or their worldview, they just reject the fact. So I don't think that's necessarily the answer, but I think that on the media does a way of talking about the larger narrative and make helps you question, you know, why a larger narrative is the way it is and maybe give a sense of how to shift the way people are thinking about stuff. Um I think as a as a audio producer or as a journalist, I guess is what I am, is to I have a point of view. I don't I think this idea that you can be completely objective and not have a point of view is is really false. I mean, I have a point of view. It's just a more if I'm gonna be fair in reporting all sides of it. And the problem with right-wing media is that they're not fair. You know, they're not they're not giving equal I mean, I'm I guess I'm willing to be surprised and corrected and open to adjusting the way I think if I'm presented with facts or understanding that's gonna be that way, but I still, as a human being, have a point of view, you know.

SPEAKER_00 20:37

So final question. Do you think that liking on the media says something about you? And if so, what is that?

SPEAKER_01 20:46

I guess it says I'm sort of a public radio nerd because it's like a in some ways a very No, I mean I would hate for them to hear that I think it's a niche interest, because I think it's it's got broader appeal. But I think when I talk to other people who love public radio and I say Brooke Gladstone is one of my heroes, it speaks a certain group of people who get it as well. Like I'm part of that. But I I don't really it's not that but I'm not doing that to be part of that group. I'm just saying it's like it I genuinely think it's a great show, and I think they do a really excellent job every week. It also shows the fact that, as I said, I haven't been to journalism school, and it is my way of learning about journalism and about larger ethical issues and about narratives, so it's part of my ongoing continuing education, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 21:32

Will thank you so much for talking with me today.

SPEAKER_01 21:36

Oh, I'm happy to happy to spread the news about a great show.

SPEAKER_00 21:40

And that's the show. Pod Actually is produced and hosted by me, Katherine Harris. If you like the program, please tell a friend. And you can also support us over at Patreon at PodActually or on Substaff. Thanks for listening. See you soon.